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What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
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What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 11:54 AM
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Will eBay hold buyers accountable to abide by the documented return polices every sellers is required to place in the eBay ad postings when a brand new item is defective out of the box or fails a week or two later? We sell technology items and in the real world there is no such thing as a 100% perfect manufacturing process. Sometimes, a tiny fraction of the time, NEW items fail out of the box or within a few weeks. There is no way to avoid this fact of life. But at the same time it is NOT a Significantly Not As Described item. The item was sold as a brand new factory packaged item. Our eBay ad postings very clearly state NO REFUNDS, if an item is defective it will be replaced for free. Those are the Terms of Sale every one of our buyers agree to when they make their eBay purchase. You know that "Legally Binding Contract" as eBay puts it. Unfortunately the current PayPal, and it sounds like the new eBay, resolution systems only offer buyers a 100% refund of the item price plus S/H in these cases because the buyers are only given the option to file a SNAD. And almost ALWAYS before contact us as a seller so we can work with them to resolve the issue. How exactly will eBay be handling SNAD cases for new items found defective upon receipt by the buyer and the buyer agreed with their purchase to NO REFUNDS, Replacement Only? Will sellers get SNAD Buyer Satisfaction strikes against them and have to issue full refunds because of a "Manufacturer Defect" that the seller was more than willing to replace but eBay ONLY offered the buyer a full refund in violation of the TERMS OF SALE both parties agreed to in advance? Please help me to understand what exactly eBay's plans are here? Thank you, Doctor-Deals Thanks, Doctor-Deals 
Thanks,
Doctor-Deals
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(1 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 12:56 PM
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Hi doctor-deals,
Here's how the process is set up:
* Sellers maintain their own return policies, and eBay doesn't get involved (apart from we will require return policy to be stated on new listings starting in June--and one option is returns not accepted).
* We always will have an item not as described return flow for buyers, in the event there truly is a problem.
The new resolution process is set up to strongly encourage buyers to work things out with sellers first. It sounds like you're willing to accept returns--and provide a replacement--if an item shows up defective. The process isn't set up to enforce this though--if the buyer claims not as described, the item was indeed broken, and the buyer wants a refund, then we would refund the buyer.
Clay
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(2 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 01:32 PM
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Clay, So basically eBay with completely ignore the documented agreement between the two parties, circumvent the Required Return Policy in the ad posting and give the buyer a 100% refund they are not entitled to instead of facilitating a return for replacement. Unfortunately, if an item is defective eBay will not be able to offer any assistance with the return or replacement process other than advise the buyer to contact the seller, which they should have done in the first place. The only thing eBay will have to offer is a Full Refund at the sellers expense both financially and negative impact on their business reputation. And basically all a buyer has to do is "claim" an item is defective and they get an eBay sanctioned 45-day 100% refund "Buyers Remorses" policy just like they have now with PayPal. Oh, and the kicker is the SELLER gets a Buyer Satisfaction Strike when they have done absolutely nothing wrong. I am sorry, but I do not see how this is any kind of improvement other that eBay pledges to make this whole process faster. Great!!! . Thanks, Doctor-Deals
Thanks,
Doctor-Deals
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(3 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 01:49 PM
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We sell technology items and in the real world there is no such thing as a 100% perfect manufacturing process. This is true for anything new =/ What happens for buyer remorse? Say its a NEW item, they use it and don't like it. They send it back and get a refund. There is no way that the seller can re-sell it for the original cost anymore if at all. That is another question. How does eBay expect to do the return/refund process on personal care items that are sold new but returned used? I sold some new breast pumps before and learned that according to the FDA they are branded as single-use items and its not legal to resell them once used. In this instance, shouldn't eBay consider no returns on personal care items, period? . . T.V. - Why do you think they call it programming? 
=p
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(4 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 01:58 PM
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Hi chattanooga family,
Buyer remorse isn't an acceptable reason for a buyer to claim that the item wasn't as described. It's true that in some cases the seller won't be able to recover the same value on the item as the first time around--but on the other hand, we always need to provide buyer protection.
Good question regarding items that are no longer sellable once used (there are a number of instances where this applies, actually). In this case the seller should appeal to eBay. We would evaluate the situation and reimburse the seller for the value of the item as appropriate.
Clay
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(5 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 02:04 PM
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> Hi doctor-deals,
>
> Here's how the process is set up:
> * Sellers maintain their own return policies, and eBay doesn't get involved (apart from we will require return policy to be stated on new listings starting in June--and one option is returns not accepted).
> * We always will have an item not as described return flow for buyers, in the event there truly is a problem.
>
> The new resolution process is set up to strongly encourage buyers to work things out with sellers first. It sounds like you're willing to accept returns--and provide a replacement--if an item shows up defective. The process isn't set up to enforce this though--if the buyer claims not as described, the item was indeed broken, and the buyer wants a refund, then we would refund the buyer.
>
> Clay
the question I have is "Will eBay require that the buyer return the claimed defective item to the seller?" " Or will a buyer be able to claim a defective item, even if it is not defective, keep the item and get their money back?"
If a seller has a defective item returned to him, he may have recourse with the manufacturer. If the buyer isn't required to return the item, it almost encourages fraud at the seller's expense.
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(6 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 02:07 PM
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Hi mylegacy-treasures,
Buyers will be required to return the item to the seller as a condition for getting a refund in item not as described claims.
Clay
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(7 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 02:11 PM
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> Buyer remorse isn't an acceptable reason for a buyer to claim that the item wasn't as described. It's true that in some cases the seller won't be able to recover the same value on the item as the first time around--but on the other hand, we always need to provide buyer protection. > Clay, I am sorry but it appears you have very little experience selling in any kind of volume to eBay buyers. There are MANY that understand how to "work" the system and others that are simply confused and do not know what to do. With only two options, INR & SNAD, they simply "claim" SNAD becuase they know PayPal, and now eBay, will ALWAYS give them 100% of their money back. This is how "Buyer Remorse" has worked on eBay for many years and your plans will only prolong that process. As long as eBay continues to sanction a 45-day 100% Money Back "Buyer Remorse" unlimited no questions asked return policy by simply "claiming" an item is not as described, buyers will take advantage of it, even if it is only just every once in a while. EBay needs to add a THIRD option that the item was received, is what was described but does not work or is "Defective", DEF. This would give buyers the option to chose a true and accurate representation instead of SNAD and give eBay a channel for a return for replacement process that many buyer and sellers alike want and need. What we need from eBay is REAL SOLUTIONS, not more corporate double talk on how eBay cannot enforce Seller Return Polices that eBay REQUIRES sellers put in the ad postings but are 100% meaningless and totally ignored by eBay. Lets find workable solutions and not continue the failed polices and processes PayPal has been beating sellers over the head with the past several years. What about the SELLER and what is good to keep them financially viable on this marketplace as well? . Thanks, Doctor-Deals
Thanks,
Doctor-Deals
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(8 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 02:47 PM
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Doctor-Deals--
There will always be buyers who take advantage of our systems. That's why we're doubling down on buyer fraud monitoring and enforcement. The vast majority of claims are filed by buyers who only file a single claim each year. If a buyer files two or more claims then they quickly merit greater scrutiny from eBay and PayPal. I am quite confident that taking advantage of sellers through fraudulent SNAD claims is not a scalable scam in any way, shape, or form.
The simple fact is that the retail standard for purchases is that buyers can return any item they're not happy with. Increasingly that's the standard for online purchases as well. No seller will succeed online over the long term if they tell their buyers they have to keep items they are not happy with.
Defective items are SNADs. From the buyer's perspective, they bought an item (say, a working hard drive) and they got something different (say, a non-working hard drive). Whether it's the seller's fault is not relevant to the buyer. You may have a shipped a new-in-box item to the buyer, but if they opened it up and it didn't work, the buyer expects you to do the right thing and to take it back. If the buyer is willing to accept a replacement instead of a refund, great -- but true buyer protection means the buyer can get their money back, not just a replacement.
The terms of sale (including the return policy) are important because they set the buyer's expectations for the transaction. Fair, clearly communicated terms can prevent many disputes from being filed in the first place. But if the buyer decides to come straight to eBay (or PayPal) we have an obligation to take care of them. I don't think it's double talk to explain that we may invalidate seller terms of sale in order to do so. If the seller says "as is - no returns" and the item arrives and it doesn't work as advertised, the original terms of sale on the listing don't matter.
eBay can't be a marketplace where sellers can unload misdescribed or non-working items and then stand behind terms of sale to prevent the buyers from getting redress. I know you're a top flight seller who sells only high quality merchandise, but if we were to set the rules as you suggest, we'd be opening the door to other sellers who would abuse them -- and that would drive buyers away, to the detriment of the overall marketplace.
Colin
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(9 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 02:57 PM
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I am quite confident that taking advantage of sellers through fraudulent SNAD claims is not a scalable scam in any way, shape, or form. Colin, with all due respect that's not what we've been seeing. Also, I question the validity of this: The simple fact is that the retail standard for purchases is that buyers can return any item they're not happy with. Increasingly that's the standard for online purchases as well. There are some sites, yes, that will refund. BUT they do not return original shipping NOR do they accept opened, used items. They also may charge a restocking fee. Very few sites, not even Nordstrom's, refunds original or return shipping.
Amber
Romance and Mystery Reviews
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(10 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 03:12 PM
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That's why we're doubling down on buyer fraud monitoring and enforcement.
Colin, Ebay has nothing in place now for monitoring buyer fraud, so I'm encouraged to hear Ebay will be doubling it. Double of nothing is ?
The vast majority of claims are filed by buyers who only file a single claim each year.
The question relates not to the vast majority, but the (increasing dramatically) minority who abuse the INAD process and defraud sellers. Clearly Ebay's new changes continue to ignore a very serious issue that increasing number of sellers are having to deal with. It is ignored now and getting worse. What support, in practical terms, can sellers anticipate getting regarding their losses due to abuses by scamming buyers?
If a buyer files two or more claims then they quickly merit greater scrutiny from eBay and PayPal.
Is this a new policy? Because this does NOT accurately reflect what has been happening. I can provide links to threads that are less than a week old that document quite clearly at least six separate cases of buyers that have filed repeated claims over several years and there was no intervention or scrutiny by either Pay Pal or eBay until board posters with direct connections at Ebay/Pay Pal sent the threads in to be looked at. *To date in all six instances still nothing was done to stop the seller from losing their funds even though they had not received their item(s) back.
I am quite confident that taking advantage of sellers through fraudulent SNAD claims is not a scalable scam in any way, shape, or form.
You're wrong. Read the boards. Just check in on Seller Central as a start. You will see that your confidence is misplaced.
Caped~
The information and writing contained in this post is the property of the named Ebay user who retains sole and exclusive rights without limitation which may not be granted to another without written permission.
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(11 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 03:55 PM
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buriedbybooks wrote:
"There are some sites, yes, that will refund. BUT they do not return original shipping NOR do they accept opened, used items. They also may charge a restocking fee. Very few sites, not even Nordstrom's, refunds original or return shipping."
Amazon will often return the full payment price, or offer a replacement at no additional cost. Many online retailers include prepaid return labels in the box, or will email a prepaid return label upon request (buy.com). Zappos has a 365 day return policy and free overnight shipping. Endless has something similar. Not to mention that credit card chargebacks have always offered a refund of the full purchase price, including shipping, with very few questions asked -- and pretty much all online purchases are made on credit cards.
orange_cape wrote:
"...six separate cases of buyers that have filed repeated claims over several years and there was no intervention or scrutiny by either Pay Pal or eBay until board posters with direct connections at Ebay/Pay Pal sent the threads in to be looked at. *To date in all six instances still nothing was done to stop the seller from losing their funds even though they had not received their item(s) back."
Are these recent cases? Because I'd wager that eventually all these sellers will get their items back. I've heard a lot of seller concern about their exposure on SNADs, and I've personally looked into many of these cases, and in my experience the actual instance of buyers using SNAD claims to defraud sellers is extremely low. Sellers aren't happy with buyers filing these claims and returning these items, but by my observations the examples of buyers scamming sellers through fraudulent SNAD returns is outnumbered by seller SNADs by a factor of 100 to 1. And we have a seller SNAD appeals process where sellers can get refunds for returned items damaged or made unusable by buyers.
The eBay Guarantee is a powerful message from eBay that buyers can rest assured -- eBay has their back. We understand that we have to match that commitment with a commitment to aggressively ensure that it will not be abused by buyers at the expense of sellers.
Colin
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(12 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 04:14 PM
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The simple fact is that the retail standard for purchases is that buyers can return any item they're not happy with ~ Colin
Colin, ebay is not 100% retail. It's also used, second hand, etc. eBay has never been considered retail, has it? Isn't ebay considered an auction site? Are you saying ebay will be headed towards a true retail environment?
If that's the case, I think I should be paid for my property, not 21 days from now, and I want to be protected from non-paying bidders not paying for auction items, not just fixed price. Seems to me that ebay is splitting fixed price and auctions down the middle when it comes to sellers BUT NOT FOR BUYERS.
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(13 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 04:35 PM
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westvirginiaborn--
You're right, not every item on eBay is new, high quality, retail standard -- Zappos is selling new Jimmy Choo shoes, so their resolution process is obviously going to be different than someone who is selling used baby clothes on eBay.
The strength of this new on-eBay resolution process is that every case will be manually reviewed by eBay customer service reps, so they will be able to steer the process in a direction that is most appropriate to the item under dispute. So I'm not saying that every sale on eBay will be treated as "retail standard" -- my point is more that buyer expectations have changed, and our resolution process (and protections coverage) has to change to keep up with the times.
Colin
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(14 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 04:37 PM
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Many online retailers include prepaid return labels in the box And Most deduct that return label postage from the refund.
Amber
Romance and Mystery Reviews
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(15 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 04:38 PM
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Nordstrom: EASY MERCHANDISE RETURNS (Excludes Gift Cards) By mail Pre-paid Shipping Label - $6.00 Mail your item(s) using the included return label, and we'll simply deduct a flat fee of $6.00 from your order refund for return postage. Unfortunately, we cannot refund your original shipping charges.
Amber
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(16 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 04:40 PM
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Amazon: Using our Return Mailing Label The return mailing labels obtained from our online Returns Center are valid only for returns shipped within the U.S. Each return mailing label is coded for a specific shipment. Please do not include items from other orders, or other shipments from the same order, in the same box, or you will not receive the correct refund. Each shipment must be returned using a separate mailing label. If you use this mailing label and the return is a result of our error (you received an incorrect or defective item, etc.), we'll pay the return shipping costs. If you use this mailing label and your return is not the result of our error, the shipping cost of that returned item will be deducted from your refund. The amount deducted will be equivalent to our standard shipping cost for that item.
Amber
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(17 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 04:49 PM
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If an item is truly SNAD, I have no issue with a seller being forced to accept a return. The issue at hand, though, is the misuse of the SNAD policy by buyers who should not be shopping online. Those who are overly picky, who don't like the color, who can't translate listed measurements into a spatial understanding of how big something is. There is NO protection against buyers who falsely file a SNAD to force a return. There simply isn't. And since there isn't any real protection, I object to Paypal's forcing the return of original shipping costs. As for CC chargeback rights, I have far more faith in CC companies cracking down on chronic chargeback abusers than I do Paypal's fraud detection.
Amber
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(18 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 04:50 PM
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Right, I think that underscores my point -- we're only talking about returns where the seller is found to be at fault in some way. Amazon covers return shipping in those cases.
Let's be clear: for the new eBay process, buyers will be required to return the items to the sellers at their own cost in most SNAD cases. So the seller is out the shipping to the buyer and the buyer is out the shipping back to the seller, and the seller has the item and the buyer has their original purchase amount. So the transaction is pretty much "undone" -- both the buyer and seller are out the same amount.
Colin
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(19 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 04:53 PM
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we're only talking about returns where the seller is found to be at fault in some way. You're intentionally missing my point, Colin. Amazon gets to decide whether the buyer is full of it or not. So does Buy.com etc. Monroe has already admitted that the buyer has to simply check a box assuring Paypal that they're not filing a false claim to win a SNAD. The seller hasn't been 'proven' to be at fault. That is their default state for ALL SNAD claims.
Amber
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(20 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 05:05 PM
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both the buyer and seller are out the same amount. No, they're not. The seller is also out: Listing fees (I'm not a PS, so I don't get an insertion fee credit) Packaging costs Payment processing fees if other than Paypal
Amber
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(21 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 05:06 PM
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And Colin - When it is all done, the seller is found not to be at fault, but item is returned, buyer has all original monies back, but not the return shipping fee - they will neg the seller anyway because they can. It can only be removed if the item was purchased on Fixed Price. If it was an auction item, we, the good seller who took the item back, refunded the monies to the buyer - are stuck with a negative.
0 of 0 equals 0 - The Well is Dry - NO coins for me - NO fees for you
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(22 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 05:07 PM
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Totally flawed and unfair system
0 of 0 equals 0 - The Well is Dry - NO coins for me - NO fees for you
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(23 of 30)
Re: What About Documented Return Policies & SNAD Cases for NEW items?
Apr 14, 2009 05:12 PM
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Fundamentally, what we have here, Colin, is a lack of trust. Paypal and eBay have poor track records in terms of proactively going after buyer fraud. We've seen case after case of that here on the boards and in our own personal experiences. Amazon WILL suspend buyers who abuse their return policies. They track the returns and excessive returners are banned. I have zero faith in eBay's ability to follow through on their promises to do the same here. Amazon has a 30 day return policy for their 3rd party sellers BUT they also back them up with verified addresses, fraud detection and real access to customer service. All for less than I pay here in fees. After all, weren't we already assured that they DO suspend abusers of the Paypal dispute process? We have seen no evidence of that. Sure, you have the privacy cop-out, but we'd like to see some real evidence that Paypal/EBay is intervening in cases where excessive claims have been filed.
Amber
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