yardsalezip-dot-co.. wrote:

Think of all the time and energy you've wasted on this schmuck. That's what has to be frustrating. You've done everything by the "booK', and you've got a "buyer" trying to extort product (or money) from you. If they fail, they're out nothing. If they succeed, they get your product, and your money. It's a wonder there aren't more scam artists trying to pull this same stunt. I guess it's only a matter of time before more catch on.

 

Ebay is turning into a con man's paradise, with Ebay acting as the facilitator. The con man you're dealing with will have 100% positivie feedback too (you can't warn others with a negative), as they go trolling along looking for another victim to fleece.

 

Good luck.

Yes, it is fustrating, but not nessessarily...... "time wasted".

This situation is not only a learning experience for me, but for others that are following this thread that have not dealt with this type of situation before.

I said in an earlier post...."You need to choose your battles carefully". I, via my listing return policy, gladly accept returns without any restrictions.....Well, except for 1.....Simply return the item(s). I choose to stand my ground (fight this battle), because of the buyers 1st threatening eBay message.

A lot of sellers think that every buy wanting to return items, is trying to scam them, or take avantage of them. This can not be any  further frm the truth. Yes, there are a few that "borrow" the item, but they are few and far between. And some catagories have more of these instances than others.

Out of now over 500 items sold on this ID, i've happily refunded twice for returned items. This particular buyer however, has gotten me to really research the rules, both eBay & paypal. I made sure that my responces to them regarding their atempts to extort, are infact correct & that i'm in compliance with the rules as to how to proceed with their threats.

Time is ticking away for them, as it's past my 30day return time.......But the eBay/paypal 45 day time limit is approaching fast. I have set aside the funds to refund them + return postage costs, even if they return the items past the 45 days to file a claim. As an honest seller, I will honor any return from them upto 5 days after the 60day FB time limit expires. Beyond that, I feel I have no further obligation to refund.

To update this situation: The buyer has not contacted me again for 2 days now, nor have they opened a case. So I figure, they have realized i'm not caving, and maybe they "Have" sent the items (or something) back to me.

Lessons learned so far:

• Never ask a buyer to open a case.......NEVER
• Not all buyers wanting to return are scamming
• Follow the rules eBay/paypal have laid out
• REPORT all messages that have a threatening tone, or that ask you to provide products and/or services that are not offered or that are not concistant with eBay/paypal policy
• Don't cave to unreasonable buyer demands, especially with fear of retaliation if you don't do so-n-so that is not part of the original transaction.
• Most of all, be "Polite" when responding to a buyer......Even if they are threatening you.

Update............

Buyer sent this message:

"Dear theemblemstore,

-- Hello

I was away and just got back. That is why I am just getting back to you.

Send me your complete address and I will send you exactly what you sent me, I would like a complete refund. I just want to be done with this whole deal.

Thank you"

Seems they have found out that the only way to get a refund, is to actually send it back. Imagine that concept. And they've found out, "extortion" doesn't "always" work.............Least not with me anyway.

I'm expecting the package to be short on items, items to be totally destroyed or something other than the product.  But, I will honor the return in full, once I receive the package.

janewt-1 wrote:

theemblemstore wrote:

The sad part is........ eBay/paypal don't require items returned from International buyers to show delivered back to us via a DC#, like we are asked to do to prove delivery. All an International buyer has to do is to show something was sent back. Least thats the way I read the rules.

 

Just a quick clarification.  All any buyer has to do (domestic or international) is prove they sent the return package to the correct address. They DO NOT have to prove delivery.

 

Otherwise, all any bad seller would need to do is simply refuse delivery on any returned item and never have to pay a refund.

 

DC is not based on the actual delivery address, it is based the: Town, the State and the zip-code, not the actual physical address. There was a thread on another board, where the buyer shared a zip-code with another town (just like I do).

The buyer in that situation opened an INR case. Even though the DC# showed delivered, they, the buyer, convinced eBay CS that the towns didn't match, and they won the case. The seller then appealed the case, based on the fact that delivery conformation is to be based on the zip-code and nothing else. They also proved that the zip-code belong to the buyer town, as it was a shared zip-code. eBay then reversed the decision back to the sellers favor, took the monies back from the buyer & started to investigate the buyer because they had a history of doing this.

If as a seller, you refuse a return package, the buyer will automatically win. This was and has been proven time and time again.

In the situation i'm in with this buyer, since they are an International buyer..........All they have to do is purchase the equivalent of our DC. If they then open a case, all they have to do is enter that number.........It doesn't have to show delivered.

The only time an International buyer needs to show on-line viewable return delivery is if the item is over the 250.oo threshold. And then it would need to be an on-line viewable signature.

A Domestic buyer cannot win a case, where they are required to return an item.......If they do not provide a DC# showing delivery back to the seller (to their zip-code), the held funds won't be released

Quoted frome "PayPal User Agreemant" Claim Resolution Process" section..........

"Claim Resolution Process. Once a Dispute has been escalated to a Claim, PayPal will make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the Seller. You may be asked to provide receipts, third party evaluations, police reports, or anything else that PayPal specifies. PayPal retains full discretion to make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the Seller based on any criteria PayPal deems appropriate. In the event that PayPal makes a final decision in favor of the buyer or Seller, each party must comply with PayPal’s decision. PayPal will generally require the buyer to ship an item that the buyer claims is SNAD back to the Seller (at the buyer’s expense), and PayPal will generally require a Seller to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. In the event a Seller loses a Claim, the Seller will not receive a refund on his or her PayPal or eBay fees associated with the transaction. If you lose a SNAD Claim because the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed)."

Also put their address in google maps and select satelite image. Unless they are near an air base or something strategic, you will see their front door. It helps you to know who you are dealing with.

Go with your gut instinct. I did.

Just adding an Update  to this thread............

No word yet from the buyer, since I only refunded for 6 they returned (original postage & return postage included in this refund), and not for the entire 10 they ordered.

Not even a "peep"..LOL

I still have a while to wait this whole thing out.

Well readers & followers................

Today is day 45, the last day for this buyer to open a case. So far none.

Now, only 15 more days till the chance to leave FB runs out.

So far I have successfully fended off this buyer trying to extort and/or get free items from me. Even though I refunded this buyers original & return shipping, the buyer has still paid monies (I retained the funds) for the 4 they kept.

Some will say I've spent more time fighting this and posting/documenting about the overall experience, as my time is more valuable for other things. I have to agree that I have spent a lot of time focusing/posting about it........But I feel others should learn/know that you can defend yourself in such a situation.

Instead of paying off this buyer, I have put them on eBays radar, along with possibly stopping them from doing it again to another seller. If I would have ignored it altogether, they (the buyer) would have a free pass to do it again to another seller, and that seller could be you.

So if this thread helps another seller (even if it's just one) fend off an extortion or "free item" attempt, then my time was not wasted at all.

I will post to this thread again, once something develops or the FB time limit runs out......... which ever comes first.

gracefulthingzshop wrote:

Just jumping in to say:

 

OP you did an amazing job handling this situation.  Hat off to you!

 

Oh, and thank you too.

Thank you , and your welcome

For the readers and followers:

One thing should be known.....Not all buyers wanting to return an item or item(s) are scammers or PITA's. Many are really nice in the fact that they contact you (nicely), and let you know they are sending it back for what ever reason. I welcome thoughs at any time, for any reason.

Spotting the scammers or PITA's is sometimes difficult to do, so don't think everyone wanting to return is trying to pull a fast one. It wasn't until the 2nd message from this buyer, and the fact that they balked at returning the items for a full refund, that I became suspicious. Digging deeper into it, showed their true intentions.

I doubt this buyer will leave FB (they have the option to leave 5), as I don't beleive they want to be outed by my pre-conceived, ready to post, replies. Or, they don't want their FB for others to show the signs. But we shall see.........

If they do leave neg's, I may not have to even post replies...as their neg's would really look "out of place", when compared/blended in with the rest.

I think; keeping my cool, not letting my blood pressure get out of hand, taking time to review the rules, responding professionally to the buyer and letting the system work for me in this case, is what tipped the scale in my favor.

I'm a very reasonable person. I've sold under different screen names on eBay for years. This particular one is for posting only, as I want to retain anonymity.

Out of ten years of selling on eBay, one buyer who tried to defraud me stands out in my memory more than anybody I've ever dealt with on eBay. This one tried every trick in the book imaginable. They started to actually write things in a psychotic manner on the dispute when they opened up a case against me. Before they opened this case up, I kindly told them "if they were unhappy with the garment, to just send it back." They claimed it had a stain on it. I am sure it did not. I figure they just wanted their money back because it did not fit. Either that or they wanted to try to scam me out of a double payment.

You see, they started to act very accusatory, trying to twist and distort everything I told them. I just told them to send back the item, and I will give you a refund. They kept on insisting that I refund them right there and then. The things they were saying didn't add up. Nobody would waste that much time to write that many pages on a buyer dispute for an item under $100. I never saw anyone write so many lies in my life to try to discredit me. Maybe they didn't realize that our private conversation - emails through eBay's messaging system - could easily be read by any eBay representative.

Who knows? All I know is I kept telling the customer I'd give them a refund when I got the garment back. I told them I couldn't give them a refund right now because I didn't have the garment back. The buyer told me they were a top-rated seller who had a customer who asked for his money back once. This irate buyer said their buyer opened a dispute with them and they just refunded him the money right there and then, even though PayPal was holding the funds. I told my irate buyer that I didn't have the funds available to refund because PayPal was holding, and my irate buyer went bolistic! I mean it was crazy. This buyer acted so crazy and insisted that I transfer money from my checking in to my Paypal to refund them right away. I know I smelled a scam. So I called up my bank and told them everything this buyer wrote in the dispute. The bank said it sounded like my account could be compromised and they closed my checking account that was associated with that eBay account. Long story short. My buyer got their money back. I got a garment back with a stain that they put on there. I never sent a garment with a stain.

But I did talk to Paypay and eBay for a whole week. I spent literally hrs. on end each day with them to get this straightened out. They never penalized my account and never gave me a mark against my account either. eBay and PayPal had me covered. They were so understanding. Even they read what this buyer said on the dispute and knew something was terribly wrong.

They did give me some tips to avoid this problem from ever happening again. The one guy from eBay, who is also a seller, told me to take a picture of the item with a date and time stamp. "Take 12 pictures," he said. Well, now I put on all my auctions that I take a picture of this item with a date and time stamp before I ship. I haven't had any problems and this helps avoid scammers. How can they scam when you got pictures of the item you sent with a date and time stamp? Granted, it takes a little longer to do, but it's worth it.

I also decided to get a PO Box. This way, the returned item get picked up at the post office. (I rarely ever get a return by the way.) Since I would get a very small PO Box, the item would be held at the post office. The clerk would have to hand it to me before it's scanned, DELIVERED. Then I can open the package in front of the postal clerks, who all happen to be my friends. Yes, it's important to make friends with everyone at your local post office. LOL! I hope this all makes sense to you. That way, whatever they send back will be opened and recorded in front of a postal clerk and a photograph with a date and time stamp will be taken at that time. You think any buyer would want to deal with that? I don't think so. I hope this helps all eBay sellers to avoid what I went through. I feel sorry for any eBay buyer who would attempt to scam a seller who would take the time to do all of this. They got another thing coming! But I really do believe that will not happen again. Any eBay buyer who sees that I take pictures of all items with a date and time stamp before I ship will avoid trying to scam me like the plague. I am sure they'd do the same for you. Just make sure you really do take the pictures before you ship and make sure you let your customers know you take pictures with a date and time stamp of the item you will ship to them. They will go to another seller to scam before they even consider buying from you. I hope that helps!

Congrats, Doug!    Glad it worked out for you.

I've not had any luck w/ buying online lately.  I'm probably on eBay's crap list for returning items.

Last week, I bought 2 things on eBay and both are being return just because of stains, stains, stains.  I don't understand why these buyers are not disclosing the stains in their listings.

One ignored my messages..I sent 2 in the span of 7 days and since this seller is not responding back, I finally open a case last night...lo and behold...finally responded this morning stating that did message me etc..etc..etc.. Ok, I didn't get any.  Needless to say, I'm returning both items.

You know what's funny, from last time, I said I won't be buying from a non-TRS anymore because I've always had bad experiences, right?  LOL.  I should of listened to myself, seriously, coz I bought those 2 things from a non-TRS and, again, disastrous results.  Ughhhhh!! 

Carry the REAL thing