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U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 7, 2011 12:18 PM
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I had an item that I sold, PayPal shows a United States shipping address with the tracking number showing delivery to them in fast time, then 17 days later I get an email from the buyer stating item is damaged, and not as described and wants a full refund including their shipping costs (even though mine to the East Coast were free).
The add and pictures are exactly as described. Upon further research, I found that the buyer actually lives over seas and has a U.S. shipping address. So the U.S. address I shipped it to will then turn around and ship it overseas. Which means if we don't know it's going over seas and pack it accordingly, then the shipper we just sent it to will open the box, remove our U.S. Paperwork, and repack it - therefore having a good chance of our item being damaged by some one else before going over seas.
My beef with the buyer is, how does the buyer know if the secondary shippers did not cause the damage? I know I didn't cause the damage and have pictures to prove it. So I told the buyer, no refund because I can't be responsible for what the secondary shippers do or not do.
As I figured, my very first case opened, however I called Ebay and they told me how to handle it and were very helpful and the chances of this working out for me will be good. But only because I took detailed pictures and my details on the add were probably an over kill.
So the interesting thing for Sellers to be aware of is Over Seas Buyers having U.S. shipping addresses, have our products over seas and claims damages for return of money and try to keep both the money and the product.
And on top of that, I am sure these items are getting sent as gifts since they were "shown" to be paid within the U.S.. As an export company, I know that is a big no...no....!
Then on top of that, the buyer had enough nerve to write to me and tell me if things did not go their way, they would leave bad feedback. Ebay stated once the case is resolved and should I win and the buyer leave bad feedback as they are claiming to do, Ebay will remove it because they consider it to fall under "feedback extortion."
My advice to Seller's, in addition to the Packing Slips, and Shipping Labels, go back to the actual user name and look at their location, as their true location does not come up when Packing Slips and Shipping Labels are to be done. If you see the user being over seas, then you know you can be in for a bumpy ride. Especially if you are not aware that you will need to pack the item as if it were to go over seas to begin with causing the secondary shipper to open the package and handle the products.
I have dealt with Overseas companies that have U.S. Shippers, but they are up front about it and ask that I do a little extra work and things work out great. It's the sneaky one's you have to watch for and Ebay appeared to be genuine in their concern when I spoke with them today.
I think scammers are going to be the reason why the internet will be regulated in the future. There is too much of it going on. Whatever happened to honesty and the rewards of hard working people?
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(1 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 7, 2011 01:51 PM
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We have also sold to buyers that used forwarding services. many times. So far no problems like you reported. If item is being opened and repacked, I can see the problems that could arise with fragile items.
Hope this actually works out for you. I dont see this situation working out for the seller in anyway. No matter what an ebay CSR has said. They have been known to lie, or be plain wrong in the past.
We have had other problems with overseas buyers all of a sudden lately. Mostly cause we refuse to ship items first class international. Making us think twice about overseas shipping. Which I hate to give up.
Thanx for the heads up! Good luck with you transaction!
Michael J...
If you're talking, you're not listening....If you're not listening, you're not learning.
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(2 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 7, 2011 02:03 PM
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We put our packing slips on the outside of the box. Most people inform us that their item is going to a freight forwarder. Also if you look at a users ID you can see what country they are from. I always check every customer out. I even google some of their addresses to check and see if it is actually a real location if the billing address does not match their shipping address. You have to protect yourself on the internet. If it looks like it might be going overseas I always ask. The more contact you have with your customer the better the transaction will be.
We take losses everyday here. Noone is going to protect you from fraud except for yourself unfortunately. You need to take the necessary steps to prevent every case. But they are still going to happen. Take it as a lesson.. move on, and keep selling.
I use this term alot
"Next"
as in finish up what you have to with the sale and move onto the next one.
MyBinding eBay store
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(3 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 8, 2011 01:08 AM
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Well, I had a wierder one than that. Slightly OT.
I shipped something from the Uk to the USA. A fragile item, that was very well packed.
Anyway, it ended up broken. Trust worthy buyer very high positive feedback both left for others and recieved for many years.
Anyway, I asked for pictures of the damage to claim on the insurance. The wierd thing was that the item box was clearly not the box i posted it in! and very poorly packed. Even wierder the senders address was not mine but from a different seller!
We were both very confused. However we concluded that the only thing that could have happened was that both items were opened in transit perhaps at customs (around anniversary of 9/11) and they were examined (for bombs and drugs) and put back in the wrong boxes.
As such i no longer ship fragile items to the USA. If I can't garuntee that they won't be opened up and repackaged on the way, it just is not worth it.
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(4 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 8, 2011 09:40 PM
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(5 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 9, 2011 10:41 AM
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mybinding wrote:
We put our packing slips on the outside of the box. Most people inform us that their item is going to a freight forwarder. Also if you look at a users ID you can see what country they are from. I always check every customer out. I even google some of their addresses to check and see if it is actually a real location if the billing address does not match their shipping address. You have to protect yourself on the internet. If it looks like it might be going overseas I always ask. The more contact you have with your customer the better the transaction will be.
We take losses everyday here. Noone is going to protect you from fraud except for yourself unfortunately. You need to take the necessary steps to prevent every case. But they are still going to happen. Take it as a lesson.. move on, and keep selling.
I use this term alot
"Next"
as in finish up what you have to with the sale and move onto the next one.
I agree with you. If I would have known it was going overseas, I would have done the same thing. I own an export company and know the in's and out's of what to do. Your term for people to "LEARN," is the sentence of " most people inform us." That's all in good if legitimate Buyers choose to do that. We always check out every customer, however, when there is a "buy it now" and the buyer pays it immediately, a contract has been set and 10 out of 10 times, the Seller will go directly to the shipping label area print a packing slip and labels through there if they so choose, at that point in time it does no good to check them out, because then if the Seller doesn't follow through on the purchase, then a negative feedback is well deserved then by the Seller. The lesson is to work with Ebay to fix the problem of proper addresses needed at the time the sale is completed, a buyer's address, in addition to the shipping address. Then Sellers would be better protected. That make more common sense then your answer.
When a Seller does this, go directly into the shipping label information after payment it shows the verified shipping address only, and if it's in the U.S., Seller's don't know any different that it's going overseas, then they are not aware of what to do with the packing information, therefore when the item gets to the U.S. address, that leaves that shipper with the opportunity to open the box, change out the paper work and then repack it to their satisfaction, not mine. A seller cannot ask every buyer what their intentions are when there is a "buy it now" item and it's paid for immediately.
So to go back to where I was leading, the point you are missing, is when Seller's go into the shipping label area, if it's to go overseas or if the buyer "lives" overseas, they should not be able to use a United States address without using a buyer's address listed in the "same location." ALL businesses that do business overseas will put a Ship To Address paperwork where needed, and then an Invoice to the Actual Buyer with their Actual Address where needed as required by Customs. I pointed that out to Ebay and stated that would protect the Sellers to know the exact address of the buyer (when it's paid for) in addition to their Separate Shipping Address. If a buyer has an overseas ID, then it should show in their verified information. Otherwise, every Seller in the United States that does business with an Overseas Buyer that is trying to hide it, should not be held liable when it goes to a U.S. address and then that secondary address sends it overseas because boxes are opened and we know paper work is then switched and then we have no control on how it's repacked.
I've worked with Customs a long time, and when people do this, they are trying to circumvent import fees, which when any U.S. individual is caught doing that, will be in a great deal of trouble. I am glad that my pictures and add was an over kill, because that will protect me, if not with Ebay, then with Customs and trust me when I say, the buyer would rather deal with Ebay than Customs on both ends. It is easy for Customs to determine if any paperwork was changed or not.
And just because you say "Take It As A Lesson, and Move On," you are wrong, that is the problem with people who are not aware of the laws in the U.S. and know that they have "outside" measures other than Ebay to ensure they are protected in doing business on the Internet, whether it's a buyer from Overseas or a Seller selling Counterfeit items, or even when Buyers put a stop payment or reverse charges on their credit cards - there are laws that protect us from all of this outside of Ebay.
When this happens, it should be shared with other people so that they are aware of what could happen, and when it happens to them, then my experience may help them not to loose any money that rightfully should not happen or help others be aware of choices that are available to them when conducting business. When anyone comes onto Ebay, it is a business, not a backyard yard sale. I have already forwarded this information to Customs and they agree something is not right because this Overseas Buyer has a company that purchases items through the U.S., sends it to a U.S. address to be forwarded, and more than likely the paper work is changed to reduce the price or change it altogether to be reduced to $0 and noted as a gift, which is against the law. An audit will be coming their way soon and rightfully so. Anyone U.S. citizen that comes across this problem needs to protect our business rights in the U.S. and stop the fraud that attacks our U.S. Dollars.
Anyone with a little intelligence can see the flaws in your statement. Learn to share and give good advice to help people and not tell them to bend over and take it in the back just because you say so! I truly hope that my post will let others know to be careful when an item is sold, to yes, not only look at the shipping information in the shipping section of Ebay - but also back out of that and click on the Seller's id to see any additional information that is not on the screen. Because Seller's will agree, when we go into items sold and choose the Shipping Label, on the first line it shows the ID Name only and not the location.
The other argument to this is, Ebay gives the Seller's the right not to do business with any overseas buyers, when a United States shipping address is used, that circumvents our rights and that is how the overseas buyers are sneaking in to break those rules, and then if the Seller wants to back out, then they have no control over any negative feedback. That is a loop hole that Ebay needs to close!
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(6 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 9, 2011 10:44 AM
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I apologize for the paragrahing situation. I typed this in paragraphs and spacing but when I hit post, it put it all together. So sorry for that. But the most important, is Ebay needs to work on closing loopholes for Sellers that do not want to do business with overseas people as it is their right to choose to do so or not.
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(7 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 11, 2011 09:25 AM
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UPDATE: Ebay was wonderful in working with me with the problem I had on this International Buyer. Ebay will also be working on fixing the problem of International Buyers listing United States shipping addresses in order to become United States buyers. Ebay was very concerned to learn that International Buyers are doing this and when Seller's come across this, they should report it to Ebay as Ebay will then investigate that buyer and enforce the necessary changes.
Ebay award the case in question in my favor, of which I am very grateful because I did nothing wrong and my item was legitimate and shipped in excellent condition as shown in our ad.
What is important now to share with everyone is what Ebay shared with me, Buyer Protection ends only with the first shipping location that the buyer registers. If any International Buyer claims damage, fake, or anything else to try to gain a refund, if you shipped it to a United States Shipping address, and they in turn reship it out of the U.S., that International Buyer waives all rights to Ebay's Protection Policies, the item will flat out not be covered by Ebay, therefore protecting the Seller.
The important thing to remember when you come across this situation is to tell Ebay that you shipped to the U.S. address and then they forwarded it, leaving you no control of how it was shipped out of the U.S. after you shipped it. If for some reason Ebay sends you an automated "favor" email for the buyer, pick up the phone and call Ebay. That's exactly what I did and it worked!
Also in this matter what people need to know as well, if you are dealing with an International Buyer, and you send your item fully insured to a United States address, per the Post Office, your insurance ends at that first shipping address, so beware how you deal with International Buyers. It's better to deal with them straight on, then through a United States Shipper.
It is good to know that Ebay does really listen when properly presented with the problem in detail in a professional and calm manner. Thanks for letting me share.
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(8 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 12, 2011 02:11 PM
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if you shipped it to a United States Shipping address, and they in turn reship it out of the U.S., that International Buyer waives all rights to Ebay's Protection Policies
Good info! Thank you DUMARC.
And glad it worked for you!
Michael J...
If you're talking, you're not listening....If you're not listening, you're not learning.
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(9 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 28, 2011 10:51 AM
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Thanks charmlinda. Also wanted to post an update to let people know the other thing that happened as well. During this process, the International Buyer stated that if I did not give them a partial refund, they would leave me a negative feedback. I don't believe in being bullied, and when I stated "no," they automatically left a negative feedback. When the case was closed in my favor, Ebay also went and removed the Negative Feedback and I'm sure imposed whatever they had to against this buyer for fraud.
Ebay stated that if any Seller comes across any International Buyers with a United States address to report them because this is not allowed.
I just hope that people learn not to go with advice from others to that tells them to give up, suck it and move on to their next sale. Because if they do just like the one above advised me to do, they would be out of well earned money. Before any one makes a decision to leave something alone and not fight it, my advice is to work with Ebay first, you will definitely learn a lot more and I can say I have learned a great deal from Ebay already!
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(10 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 29, 2011 10:30 AM
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Let me try and help everyone explain the value freight forwarders add. I am a US citizen who has lived outside the states for various periods in my life. At times I kept US adddresses with freight / mail forwarding companie in the US. This is a very common practice if you live in a country with poor mail service, I never did it to hide my place of residence. If for instance, you live in Guatemala, you may be well served to have a mail service in Miami that you can have mail and items shipped to, the service would them consolidate your packages with thier other customers stuff and ship it once a week from Miami to Guatemala via Air freight, bypassing the Guatemalan postal system where there is a strong possibility your stuff would be lost, stolen or held up for ransom by some minor official.
When someone uses a freight forwarder it is not normally to decieive or to scam anybody. The problem for you the seller is that when you ship an item to say Miami, and it arrives you part is done. Unfortunately, the freight forwarders will ALWAYS try and push any claims for damages from thier clients on you, as otherwise they will take the loss. You just need to fight them on a case by case basis.
This is not only a problem with eBay shipping but with normal international trade of every type. If you were to buy or sell container loads of products using letters of credit, those documents would specify the geographic point that the shippers responsibility ends, these are common causes of disputes.
There are risks associated with all trade, but do not always assume that offshore buyers have elaborate schemes setup to defraud you, this can be a very detrimental assumption.
In more cases than not, these risks are an inherent part of doing business and learning to deal with these risks sucessufly can and will help you grow your business.
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(11 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Oct 31, 2011 12:09 PM
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I understand cyclejunkie what you're saying. What most United States Seller's through Ebay did not know is that Buyer Protection Ends with the 1st destination/shipping address the Buyer chooses to verify with Ebay. In order for Seller's to fight dishonesty from Secondary Shippers, the Seller's need to know this in order to not give in and fight for what is right on their behalf. Any damages from the Secondary Shippers are then between that shipper and the end Buyer/User.
There have been more and more International Buyers that are trying to Scam Sellers and/or try the old "if you don't give me a partial refund due to damage (that was not caused by the Seller), then a negative feedback will be left," in otherwords, feedback extortion among other problems.
I have come across quite a few Sellers that did not know that the Buyer Protection or any type of Ebay Protection ends with the first, shipping address the International Buyer will enter for a shipping address.
The more the Seller's know, the more they will realize that Ebay has set up Policies to protect the Seller's just as much as the Buyers and not give unwarranted profits out of their pocket because an International Buyer should dictate it to be so.
I have sold direct to International Buyers in Canada, Australia, Antigua, and did not have any problems until I came across an International Buyer using a United States Address. To be fair to "ALL" United States Sellers, International Buyers should use their final destination as their shipping address therefore, the Seller can ensure everything has been done on their end and that there are no "middle men" to create any problems. The way the economy is now, scammers are coming out left and right and the less people involved, the safer buying and selling on Ebay will become.
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(12 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Apr 5, 2012 12:31 PM
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This scam just happened to me. ACI Express out of Gardenia California. After purchasing the item they sent me an auto generated email about shipping to their warehouse and proper labeling. The Item was recieved at their warehouse on March 30th. this am at 5:58am, 3:38am in California I recieved this message:
Hello.
I?m writing as I have a so big problem. After unpacking the product, I was so embarassed that I can't say anything. The package was empty. I'm just laughing due to the absurd situation. What should I do in this circumstance? Did you check out if everything was included completely before shipping the package? After confirming this request, just let me know on how you will take care of it and what I should do. I'm looking forward to hearing a satisfying resolution from you ASAP.
Thanks,
- bestbuykg2
Yeah- You have so big problem. I hand packed the item myself so immediately this stunk to high heaven.. Usually I do not jeopardize my feedback for a small purchase and work with buyers on complaints, give refunds, but right is right. After checking on the sale I realized this is the item that went to the warehouse. But the email sounds like it came for an individual not a company. I messaged back and said that the item was in the box and after more review I was contacting Ebay, Paypal in regard to their company and practices. I have yet to recieve a reply. If is obvious they were fishing for a refund. What a scam! Needless to say they stirred the pot with this seller and I am pursuing this with not only Ebay and Paypal but with agencies in California to investigate this. Though I know it may not go anywhere. It just eerks me to no end that Ebay knows this is going on. I have since blocked the buyer bestbuykg2 and bestbuykg3. I have blocked other freight consolidators before. They want to sell my item to a buyer oversees and rip me off for the item and purchase price? Any seller who gets one of those auto generated mailing instructions emails needs to be forewarned. Thanks to the other posters on this thread for the information. It is hard enough selling on Ebay and then having to deal with outright fraud is just another hassle. What I don't understand is why there is not more information on this practice and why some news agency or oversight agency has not picked up on this. We need more buyers to report this and get the word out on how we are being ripped off!
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(13 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Apr 5, 2012 12:48 PM
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Ouch Happy-Cat. That hurts.
We have used fright forwarders hundreds of times over the years without a problem. Just today as a matter of fact. I specialize in antique, rare and hard to find cameras. 50% or more of what I sell in the "unusual" category goes overseas!
Knowing the rules to protect yourself from those that try to game the system has nothing to do with the location of the buyer and whether or not a freight forwarder was used.
Its just good business to know the rules and what to look for with scammers. And how to deal with them with ebay to get problems corrected.
Michael J...
If you're talking, you're not listening....If you're not listening, you're not learning.
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(14 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Apr 5, 2012 02:52 PM
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Heres the disadvantage to buyers using a forward service:
I found a blank warranty card for an item I sold after I shipped the item. Was not described as included as I just found it in the camera bag the item came into the shop in.
If the buyer gave his actual address, I would have sent it to him. Since he used a forward company and I have no idea if they would ever make the connection to the item, I will just toss it.
Michael J...
If you're talking, you're not listening....If you're not listening, you're not learning.
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(15 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Apr 5, 2012 05:38 PM
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My story will make you feel better.
Last year we sold an expensive porcelain figurine. Someone in Japan bought it through a forwarding service in Bradenton, Florida with their US address. We shipped it free as we always do with domestic purchases. The forwarding company opened, inspected and repacked our merchandise. A month later our buyer in Japan complained that the figurine arrived a broken and wasn't properly packed. We had to pay the return shipping from Japan (close to 90.00 US$) and give a full refund of 900.00 US$.
I am getting a lawyer if something like this happens again.
It is nothing against the buyer. It is all about the forwarding business.
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(16 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Apr 6, 2012 08:08 AM
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My story will make you feel better.
If you actually read the posts in this thread before you posted, you would have seen that you were covered and would have not lost a dime or be crying lawyer if you followed the rules in place to protect a seller from just this problem.
But whatever.....Just blame ebay for your ignorance of the rules set up to protect you.
Michael J...
If you're talking, you're not listening....If you're not listening, you're not learning.
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(17 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Apr 6, 2012 09:04 AM
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Lets not to get personal, please. Be nice! I am not an ignorant person. I had read the post before adding my word. I know the rules and rights since we started selling on ebay. If I am saying we lost almost 1000.00US$ dealing with forwarding service it means we tried everything to get covered....
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(18 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Apr 6, 2012 09:54 AM
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I said nothing personal. I can if you want....
All I said was there is proper procedure to be covered for this situation which you did not follow. Now you blame ebay and are crying lawyer.
Period.
I just want others that read this to know they could have avoided losing a dime, let alone $1K.
Go put your story on the seller central board if you want to see what a personal attack is like. We are all civil here and try to inform new and old alike on proper ways to get things done on ebay with the least loss and hassles.
Sorry if you took it personal. Thats your problem.
Michael J...
If you're talking, you're not listening....If you're not listening, you're not learning.
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(19 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Apr 6, 2012 08:25 PM
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eBay's Seller Protection has covered sellers in this situation (freight forwarders) for years - it's not something new, and it's something they were clearly aware of when they created the Seller's Protection terms. Why state so clearly that the seller's shipping requirement is met when the item is confirmed delivered to a US address is they didn't know items were being reshipped overseas?
It's also why eBay recommends online delivery confirmation. So they can confirm the delivery of your shipment and chalk one point up in your favor. They don't get a kickback from the USPS for the DC they sell -- they get the ability to protect their sellers the way sellers keep asking to be protected. But you have to follow the rules.
And yes, shipping outside one's home country creates it's own set of requirements and risks. If you sell and ship outside your home country, be sure you are aware of both, and accept both as part of doing business. Saying "but I didn't know" gets you nothing.
As a long-time seller and board regular, it's painful to see people still going thru the same problems, over and over and over. New sellers, same troubles.
Good luck to all, and keep reading the boards!!
-Bob.
V.46 Trading Assistant/Consignment sales, since 1997!
See my About Me page for more details on the best tools for desktop automation for eBay!
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(20 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Jul 25, 2012 12:08 PM
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What I see as painful, is receiving a negative after shipping to a USA address for an international buyer and being solicited for a refund, but the buyer refuses to return item.
Knowing all the rules of selling no matter how long or how much you know does not protect a seller from undeserved feedback. I see fraud and a loophole for the international buyer scammer.
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(21 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Sep 7, 2012 09:11 AM
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I hope someone can help me because I am getting very nervous reading this thread. I hardly ever use ebay to sell anything so I'm not sure of all the rules. A buyer by the name of interecommercekgl2 bought my item. Took them 2 days to pay and now the funds are being held for review by PayPal. Never seen that happen before. The shipping address for them is ACI Express in Gardenia, CA. Not really sure what to do.. Can I refund them the money and refuse the sale? I really don't feel like dealing with them claiming that they received my item damaged. I don't want the money that is owed to me to be put on hold either. I have a feeling this is going to be an absolute nightmare. Can anway advise me? Thank you.
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(22 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Sep 8, 2012 06:39 PM
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I have the same problem as jowen3366. I have tried to call them and the phone answers in another language.
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(23 of 73)
Re: U.S. Seller's beware....
Sep 9, 2012 08:06 AM
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I wouldnt be too worried...once the review is over and paypal releases the funds, go ahead and ship making sure to ship to the CONFIRMED address in paypal only.
After selling for over 5 years practically fulltime, I am facing my 2nd chargeback in a month..the first was tiny and was ruled in my favor...this 2nd one has me a bit more worried but I know that I did everything right and it will be resolved. I cannot let being held hostage by feedback stop me from running my business on eBay....one neg does not hurt just make sure to continue doing everything by the rules and you will be fine.
I cannot give you the formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure--which is: Try to please everybody. Herbert Bayard Swope
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