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Last Post Feb 9, 2010 12:14 PM by: cherry-pie-and-roses
Replies: 11
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shelleykv
Posts: 2,208

How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 8, 2010 8:43 AM
Right now there are no fewer than five items inaccurately listed as Marghab. (Some may be honest errors, some are deliberate misrepresentation.)

I know that according to eBay's rules, this qualifies as Keyword Spamming (KWS) and is grounds for removal, but also that eBay, like any other power structure, enforces its own rules sporadically and in its own interest.

So I'm asking all of you -- what do you think about this? Do you think it's even a problem, or is eBay a "caveat emptor" venue where buyers need to expect deceptive advertising and do their own research? Is there anything the community can and/or should do?

(My own thought is that it harms all honest buyers and sellers. I usually assume it's an honest mistake, and if I'm sure an item is misrepresented, tell the seller about it, always referring them here for corroboration since I don't want to represent myself as some final expert. Many sellers change their listings, some don't, and some obviously know exactly what they're doing.)

Opinions?
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pins-n-needles
Posts: 9,073
(1 of 11)

Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 8, 2010 10:51 AM
Well I wouldn't know Marghab if it bit me on the tush...so I'll speak to this in generic terms.

Keyword spamming hurts us all. Misrepresentation of items hurts us all even more.

Just yesterday, I was ironing fabric in preparation for listing and I lamented to my husband that I wished I could use 'Eames Era' for a particular print fabric but I would not. The Eameses children seem to have clamped down on the use of their parents' names...and good for them as it was being bandied about and misused a great deal.

So when I list, it'll be with Mid-Century Modern as keywords - more letters, but correct for the fabric and not misusing the Eameses name.

The list of KWS abused words for my area of sales is long...and while I try very hard not to commit KWS, many others do not. And what happens is that the buyers get tired of clicking into an auction for barkcloth only to find some random decorator fabric that couldn't be barkcloth if it tried, etc. What eventually happens is that the buyers burn out and stop buying on eBay - bad for all of us.

The other thing that happens is that the buyers purchase thinking they are getting barkcloth (because the pictures are so bad they aren't sure) and/or marghab and or whatever the mis-represented item du jour is and they do this once or twice and the seller isn't forthcoming with a refund, return, etc. to rectify the situation and before you know it, we've lost another customer - burned by a bad seller one too many times and gone for good.

Yes, buyers have recourse through eBay/Paypal, but no matter what side of that equation you're on, you're often made to feel like a criminal and there are hoops that must be jumped through and no one except the scammers (and they would be criminals, wouldn't they?) wants to do that more than once.

I have to tell you that I long ago quit policing the listings for KWS and mis-representation. I don't have enough life left in me and eBay doesn't seem to care until a buyer files a complaint. So yeah, you can try to educate sellers and you can report until you're blue in the face, but in the end, eBay will do nothing unless it costs them a lot of money...and we just don't matter that much...we're too small a percentage of eBay's total sales. In fact, I'm surprised this board still exists.



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cherry-pie-and-roses
Posts: 5,100
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Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 8, 2010 10:54 AM
Oh, yes, I recognize these things as a problem but it's pervasive on eBay, in every category (at least the ones I frequent).

Vintage items don't have a manufacturer or brand name behind them to set up a VeRO rights situations here, so there's no voice to demand that the fakes or misidentified pieces be pulled. LV has people (and, boy, they are after eBay tooth & nail - especially in France but here too), Kate Spade does, Disney does, etc.

Of course, there are recognized personalities on eBay whose authentication of LV and KS, for examples, will cover sellers ahead of time and allows them to bypass being pulled. LV and KS, themselves, recognize these ladies' opinions too.

How eBay handles reports varies from person to person, based upon who actually reads the report and makes a decision about whether or not to pull the listing(s).

Outside of obvious kws, such as listing a Bulova watch and talking about Patek Phillipe and Rolex in the description, they're not going to pull them. They don't have the knowledge base to do it.

About the only times I see something get pulled because it's incorrectly identified is when a group of people bombard eBay with reports, over and over, often for days on end. (Not here, but it does happen on other boards).

So. Caveat emptor does become the rule. If one, herself, doesn't know and she doesn't know an expert to ask, I would always discourage a bid or buy unless it were a phenomenal deal (which, again, probably indicates a fake or falsely identified item).

The people who know know and they'll be right there to bid on and buy authentic pieces.


GPSA Glass & Pottery Sellers' Association * NAVT
Needle Arts & Vintage Textiles Board * Facebook
Group Blocked Bidders List - eBay BBL



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meowmeow
Posts: 6,412
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Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 8, 2010 11:16 AM
Outside of obvious kws, such as listing a Bulova watch and talking about Patek Phillipe and Rolex in the description, they're not going to pull them. They don't have the knowledge base to do it. I think that is right on....and there is no way they will ever have the knowledge or be able to hire enough people to do that.
And just because they get some complaints from other eBayers...how do they know it is not just someone wanting to get rid of a particular competition? It's a fine line.

I know some people do it deliberately and deliberate or not, it hurts everyone in the long run. I don;t like it, but I honestly do not see any way around it. Frankly, if people are foolish enough to shell out big bucks for things about which they know nothing, well....they deserve what they get. I have worked in antique shops and seen people buy things that were mislabeled....as one dealer working in a group shop, you are not allowed to say anything...sometimes we would try to warn people tactfully....if asked outright about what something was, I would as tactfully as possible indicate I didn't think it was such and such...and still watched people buy anyhow.
The truth is, it happens all over with old things...it is up to buyers to learn. That does not justify people who deliberately mislead, but I really do not see how eBay, or any other company in their position, could possible police it all.
Sorry, probably not the answer you wanted.


meowmeow
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oceanlvr
Posts: 1,218
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Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 8, 2010 12:12 PM
>>>>Just yesterday, I was ironing fabric in preparation for listing and I lamented to my husband that I wished I could use 'Eames Era' for a particular print fabric but I would not. The Eameses children seem to have clamped down on the use of their parents' names...and good for them as it was being bandied about and misused a great deal.
<<<<<<<

I think this is an interesting topic.

But I have to disagree that there is a clamp down on the use of the term Eames by anyone.

Using the term "Eames era" brings up 2,938 listings.

Just the name "Eames" brings up 5,213 listings.

Ebay does not have the interest, skill or desire to police any type of keyword spamming. I think caveat emptor is the policy that they prefer.

I am not so sure that is a bad policy. People are responsible for what they buy.

It is hard since you can not see it or touch it but that is why you can return it within in 45 days (despite what sellers say in listings) under Paypal rules.

I suppose like all of life, a seller's own ethics will be evident in the choices they make in running an ebay business. Some will cross the line and others will follow their own moral fiber and chose not to mis-lead in order to get a sale or interest buyers.

And the same is true of buyers. Some will be honest about what they received and some will not, seeing it as a way to get something for nothing.

It truly is just a part of life. Some will plead ignorance, some will plead, I did not know, and others will just do all it takes to get a sale. And there will be those who are honest to a fault. I guess it is just luck of the draw and your own due diligence as to who you deal with.

As for reporting it, I am with others, life is way too short for me to do Ebay's job.
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pins-n-needles
Posts: 9,073
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Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 8, 2010 12:44 PM
So even the Eameses' heirs have given up trying to police that KWS. Kind of a shame if you think about it, but I'm still not going to use it...



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greatlakesspirit
Posts: 822
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Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 8, 2010 5:44 PM
Eames era--just use Circa 1950's. There's a lot more that came out of the 50's beside the Eames chairs.
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embroiderist
Posts: 136
(7 of 11)

Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 9, 2010 1:04 AM
I have seen things listed as in the "I love Lucy style" or something being really Ozzie and Harriet.

what Id like is the power to eliminate categories or sellers in a search. you can guess that I search for embroidery related stuff.

run a search and seller X shows up with fifty items i do not want id like to block mr/ms X from my search. it would cure the keyword spammer from my end at least.
although i do have a list of category specific searches - but i'd like an ebay wide search with the ability to ignore some categories. as a seller sometimes will list in a different area as a better place to sell. for example an antique book I had been searching for did turn up under collectible paper. the seller listed neither its title or its author. I spotted by chance key word. but in the same search also had cars and computers cluttering the results. sigh.
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silvrlady
Posts: 2,393
(8 of 11)

Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 9, 2010 7:48 AM
As I have noted on an earlier post, correcting a lister's attribution can result in your being put on a ''Blocked Bidder'' list, even if you are correct & only trying to help. My own personal experience. Also, there are patterns and/or designs that may be unknown as to the correct source at this time. Besides, there's always somebody who knows more than I do, so only very, very rarely will I contact the seller, as they probably wouldn't believe me anyway. And we know how much help eBay will be, as I contacted them several times when my Lake Silver catalogue, showing my address & phone number, was listed & never taken down.

Some years ago a friend bought & paid much too much for a very poor color, almost colorless, blue Topaz. I knew it was not a good one, but said nothing as I am not a jeweller, but only one who has seen a lot of fine jewellery & made an amateur study of same. She found out later that the quality was poor & asked why I hadn't said anything. As she worked for an attorney she understood when I told her the jeweller possibly could have sued me for interfering with a sale, as he was a certified gemologist. Caveat emptor, y'all, & study your field of interest----hard!
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cherry-pie-and-roses
Posts: 5,100
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Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 9, 2010 8:25 AM
I think this should be the NAVT tagline:

Caveat emptor, y'all.

A lovely blend of Latin and Southern vernacular which says it all.


GPSA Glass & Pottery Sellers' Association * NAVT
Needle Arts & Vintage Textiles Board * Facebook
Group Blocked Bidders List - eBay BBL



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pins-n-needles
Posts: 9,073
(10 of 11)

Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 9, 2010 8:37 AM
Well I certainly like it.

My two years down south (South Carolina) taught me just how useful "y'all" was and it has stayed in my vocabulary ever since.

And completely off topic...On Sunday night, there must have been less than nothing on TV because I found my husband watching a re-run of Hee-Haw.

Just call BR-549... 'no collect calls'.



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cherry-pie-and-roses
Posts: 5,100
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Re: How does the NAVT community feel about this topic?

Feb 9, 2010 12:14 PM
Hey, when HH was new and in its heydey, our social group never went out until after the show on Saturday nights. Granted, we lived in TN, but we never considered ourselves to be hillbillies; we were the sorority, fraternity, country club people. lol


"Gloom, despair, and agony on me..."


GPSA Glass & Pottery Sellers' Association * NAVT
Needle Arts & Vintage Textiles Board * Facebook
Group Blocked Bidders List - eBay BBL



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