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Last Post Nov 15, 2009 10:03 AM by: fosterbengoshi
Replies: 20
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fosterbengoshi
Posts: 10

Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 2, 2009 10:08 PM
Hello folks. Last week, I ALMOST fell victim to an ingenious new scheme by an online seller to get buyers to forfeit their PayPal Buyer Protection rights. Seller sent me a PayPal Request for Money after I placed an order with her for certain toy products. I was going to click the submit payment button when I noticed something odd. Instead of clicking the checkbox describing my order as one for goods, the seller had clicked the checkbox saying this was for "services". I later confirmed that this was no mistake on the seller's part.

What's the difference you ask? Well, PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy only covers tangible goods, not services. So, by misrepresenting the transaction as one for services the seller can get her buyers to give up their reversal rights. And almost all buyers won't even realize they have done so! Wow! This is an ingenious little trick!

Still, I was the buyer, and I didn't think this was fair. So I complained and reported this scheme to PayPal. Do you know what PayPal said? Someone at PayPal Resolution Services named "Alma" replied to me via email saying: "Regarding on how the seller categorizes the business, it would be their prerogative". Imagine that! It is the seller's prerogative to lie and misrepresent the nature of their PayPal payment so that they can trick buyers into unknowingly forfeiting their PayPal rights. And I always thought PayPal wanted sellers to be truthful and honest in their PayPal transactions. How naive of me!

I wrote PayPal back saying thank you for tacitly approving this neat little trick and that I would let other online vendors know that PayPal would not care if they pulled this same trick on their buyers as well. So that is what I am doing with this post.

In fact, there is an even better way to do this - a way which I am told was suggested by a gentlement actually working inside PayPal. Instead of sending individual PayPal Requests for Money to your buyers, give them a direct payment link YOU control where you have already clicked the "services" checkbox. How many buyers actually read every little thing in there anyway? Most won't even notice. My own seller said she used this direct payment link over 500 times and no buyer ever caught on or complained!

There's one little detail I'm not sure is relevant or not. My seller has it set up where buyers can only pay via her direct payment link. She cannot receive payments via the Send Money tab in PayPal's website. When I tried doing it that way, a banner appeared saying: "This recipient accepts PayPal payments only through their website. To complete this payment, please go to their website and follow their instructions, or email the recipient for instructions."

All you clever sellers go out and do this neat little trick right away! Tell all your friends about it. PayPal apparently doesn't mind and says it is your prerogative. In the meantime, all you buyers might want to more carefully read whatever payment details your sellers have filled in for you in these direct payment links and Requests for Money. Be careful out there people!

Aloha :)
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profdata
Posts: 12,476
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Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 2, 2009 11:29 PM
It's up to the buyer to make sure he is paying for what he/she purchased.

Also certain paypal haters have told other sellers on this board to send a payment request that same way.

Just remember to always fund your Paypal payment with a credit card for the most protection.


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missouri_treasure
Posts: 3,746
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Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 6:07 AM
Let me start with the fact I haven’t used PayPal or eBay for around two years now. As I read your post I was trying to remember what the invoice looked like two years ago, wondering if this isn’t a default setting and if it might be deliberate on PayPals behalf or could it be a setting that defaulted from the prior use of the invoice?

Regardless it still doesn’t surprise me that PayPal would endorse such a thing seeing that they themselves can not be held responsible or liable for negligence via their user agreement.



Wisdom means you’ve learnt something the hard way.
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sparkstert
Posts: 2,174
(3 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 6:29 AM
OP.....If the seller has less than 100 feedback, they are probably only trying to avoid the hold. If they are, they probably also believe to do that, they make it appear, it is not goods. What makes you believe they are doing it to void rights ?

Also certain paypal haters have told other sellers on this board to send a payment request that same way.

Jeez.......Although some posters have discussed this or even recommended it, I doubt it is restricted to one group, as you wish to imply. It was also in relation to the 21 day. What does it take to be a Paypal Hater ? Is it hard to join ?
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sparkstert
Posts: 2,174
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Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 6:32 AM
P.S. If this was off Ebay, you have no rights anyway. If you check, you will find there is no SNAD protection. Kind of shocking, huh ? If you fund with your bank account, you are out of luck, anyway. They can send you a marble.
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apg58
Posts: 15
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Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 6:36 AM
I sympathize if you did encounter an unscrupuous seller, but I can tell you first hand that sellers dont have a monopoly on PayPal scams. I was victim of a buyer scam and PayPal arbitrarily issued a partial refund in favor of the buyer in spite of the fact I provided all kinds of proof and the buyer provided none. I am not an unreasonable person or unfair. I have never ripped anyone off. I sent this message to PayPal this weekend:

I do not accept your policy or manner of handing buyer disputes. Your handling of a recent transaction where I was the seller was inexcusable. I no longer feel that PayPal give me protection from buyer scams. I have zero confidence in your judgement and policies. You have lost my trust.
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itisworsenow
Posts: 136
(6 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 7:22 AM
Happened to me recently on some truck parts I purchased... The parts were weak (step bars).. The seller had no return policy, listed "services" as product on invoice..

I had funded with a CC, so I filed for a charge back (bypassed PP all together) with my holder, emailed the seller told him what I was doing due to his no return policy (did not mention services invoice) Also told him if wanted the parts back let me know where to send them (he is a drop shipper).

I then contacted the actual maker of the product told them about the weak parts, and from whom I had purchased, that has a no warranty return policy for their fine products...

Didn't take long for the seller to contact me with a call tag to retrieve the parts and issue a refund...

The important thing to remember is make sure you fund with a CC services or not.. Don't let PP trick you into using bank funds..
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dadoggy972
Posts: 486
(7 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 8:20 AM
So it is official, neither buyers nor sellers should confuse PayPal with their mommy or daddy. If we could just get the clowns to understand this seemingly simple fact we could save the lives of zillions of little electrons by doing away with this silly board. Thankfully that will not happen and we will be entertained with this drivel for years to come.
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vinnydrum
Posts: 97
(8 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 9:04 AM
Spreading your fleas around this board again uh,dog?
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sparkstert
Posts: 2,174
(9 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 9:18 AM
Hey da dog....you know what I was surprised to find out yesterday ? Other posters can contact the sellers in your feedback to see if they found you abrasive. Spooky, huh ?

Again, off Ebay, using "services" accomplishes nothing for a seller. You can't void protection that doesn't exist.
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fosterbengoshi
Posts: 10
(10 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 1:18 PM
This was an off-eBay transaction. The seller later confirmed in her own words that she set up this scheme to insulate herself from PayPal reversals, and she claims she did this with PayPal's help. The scheme works because describing a payment as one for services removes it from coverage under PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy (which only applies to "physical goods" ).

The claim that buyers have no PayPal protection off eBay is clearly not correct. Reread PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy. While it offers better protection for eBay transactions, it DOES offer protection for off eBay transactions as well - but only for items buyers claim they never receive.

I am both a buyer and seller with over 5000 online purchases off eBay. As a seller, I have been hit with these non-receipt of item reversal claims on two occasions. As a buyer, I have had to file non-receipt reversal claims on four occasions. So yes, these rights certainly do exist off eBay. That is, until now at least, until some seller decides to send you a direct payment link or PayPal Request for Money that describes your transaction as one for services instead of goods.

In any event, I just though you folks might want to know of this new scheme and PayPal's response to it when I reported it to them. I certainly don't want to debate this or get into an argument about this with anyone here. If you are still skeptical, that's cool. If you don't care, that's cool too. :)
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house*of*pym
Posts: 948
(11 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 2:04 PM
off topic but does anyone know if Paypal is using the holds and rolling reserve for off Ebay sales too?
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sparkstert
Posts: 2,174
(12 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 2:10 PM
Just curious as my posts were in reference to SNAD's. Was the seller actually doing it to not ship and eliminate INR, when they could send a marble ? I don't doubt your story, it just seems like a very dumb seller. There is a real concern, for any Paypal off Ebay because of the no SNAD. Anybody using Paypal off Ebay, needs to be very careful, even when buying "goods". Always check and double check the funding source or do like me and just use a CC. Once you commit to bank account funding, you are wide open w/no recourse.

Thanks for the info.
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sparkstert
Posts: 2,174
(13 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 2:15 PM
They do not use the 21 day hold, but are imposing rolling reserves. Several victims have come to this board.

Off topic, 30 years ago I had a 911 call on cassette. I just found out it resurfaced on U Tube. Search joe vs deer. Make sure you get the full version. If cursing bothers you, don't check it out.

Good luck
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sandypurins
Posts: 36,332
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Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 2:26 PM
The scheme works because describing a payment as one for services removes it from coverage under PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy (which only applies to "physical goods" ).

The PayPal Buyer Protection Policy text no longer excludes intangible goods and services.

The claim that buyers have no PayPal protection off eBay is clearly not correct. Reread PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy. While it offers better protection for eBay transactions, it DOES offer protection for off eBay transactions as well - but only for items buyers claim they never receive.

PayPal has two programs to help protect buyers... the Buyer Protection Policy and the Buyer Complaint Policy.

The PayPal Buyer Protection Policy applies to eligible eBay transactions and covers INR (Item Not Received) and SNAD (Significantly Not As Described) claims. When a buyer wins a Buyer Protection Claim, PayPal will reimburse the buyer up to the protection amount ($200.00 or $2,000.00 or uncapped) specified in the eBay listing regardless whether the funds are available in the seller's PayPal account.

The PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy applies to non-eBay transactions and eBay transactions which don't qualify for PayPal Buyer Protection. The PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy covers only INR claims... SNAD claims are not covered. When a buyer wins a Buyer Complaint Claim, PayPal will reimburse the buyer ONLY if the funds are available in the seller's PayPal account.

In any event, I just though you folks might want to know of this new scheme and PayPal's response to it when I reported it to them.

It's a very worthwhile thread/topic... unfortunately, not enough people will read your thread.

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