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Last Post Nov 15, 2009 10:03 AM by: fosterbengoshi
Replies: 20
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fosterbengoshi
Posts: 10

Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 2, 2009 10:08 PM
Hello folks. Last week, I ALMOST fell victim to an ingenious new scheme by an online seller to get buyers to forfeit their PayPal Buyer Protection rights. Seller sent me a PayPal Request for Money after I placed an order with her for certain toy products. I was going to click the submit payment button when I noticed something odd. Instead of clicking the checkbox describing my order as one for goods, the seller had clicked the checkbox saying this was for "services". I later confirmed that this was no mistake on the seller's part.

What's the difference you ask? Well, PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy only covers tangible goods, not services. So, by misrepresenting the transaction as one for services the seller can get her buyers to give up their reversal rights. And almost all buyers won't even realize they have done so! Wow! This is an ingenious little trick!

Still, I was the buyer, and I didn't think this was fair. So I complained and reported this scheme to PayPal. Do you know what PayPal said? Someone at PayPal Resolution Services named "Alma" replied to me via email saying: "Regarding on how the seller categorizes the business, it would be their prerogative". Imagine that! It is the seller's prerogative to lie and misrepresent the nature of their PayPal payment so that they can trick buyers into unknowingly forfeiting their PayPal rights. And I always thought PayPal wanted sellers to be truthful and honest in their PayPal transactions. How naive of me!

I wrote PayPal back saying thank you for tacitly approving this neat little trick and that I would let other online vendors know that PayPal would not care if they pulled this same trick on their buyers as well. So that is what I am doing with this post.

In fact, there is an even better way to do this - a way which I am told was suggested by a gentlement actually working inside PayPal. Instead of sending individual PayPal Requests for Money to your buyers, give them a direct payment link YOU control where you have already clicked the "services" checkbox. How many buyers actually read every little thing in there anyway? Most won't even notice. My own seller said she used this direct payment link over 500 times and no buyer ever caught on or complained!

There's one little detail I'm not sure is relevant or not. My seller has it set up where buyers can only pay via her direct payment link. She cannot receive payments via the Send Money tab in PayPal's website. When I tried doing it that way, a banner appeared saying: "This recipient accepts PayPal payments only through their website. To complete this payment, please go to their website and follow their instructions, or email the recipient for instructions."

All you clever sellers go out and do this neat little trick right away! Tell all your friends about it. PayPal apparently doesn't mind and says it is your prerogative. In the meantime, all you buyers might want to more carefully read whatever payment details your sellers have filled in for you in these direct payment links and Requests for Money. Be careful out there people!

Aloha :)
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whocares007
Posts: 938
(15 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 3, 2009 3:23 PM
So it is official, neither buyers nor sellers should confuse PayPal with their mommy or daddy. If we could just get the clowns to understand this seemingly simple fact we could save the lives of zillions of little electrons by doing away with this silly board. Thankfully that will not happen and we will be entertained with this drivel for years to come.

Why not you are confused yourself. You call yourself a doctor just because you repair bulova watches.
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fosterbengoshi
Posts: 10
(16 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 4, 2009 11:37 PM
When was the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy changed to include intangible goods and services? I checked it a few days ago and clearly recall reading language saying it covered only "physical goods".

Regarding the Buyer Complaint Policy, does that cover both goods and services?

I have posted about this same scheme on other websites and it has gotten a lot more play there than here. I am hoping PayPal does take note of this scheme rather than ignoring it as "seller's prerogative".

Aloha!
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sandypurins
Posts: 36,332
(17 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 5, 2009 5:13 PM
When was the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy changed to include intangible goods and services? I checked it a few days ago and clearly recall reading language saying it covered only "physical goods".

It's been that way for months... maybe years. It's the Seller Protection Policy which still has the "item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped" wording.

Regarding the Buyer Complaint Policy, does that cover both goods and services?

It's the same as the Buyer Protection Policy in that there is no mention of it applying only to physical goods, or that intangibles are not covered.

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fosterbengoshi
Posts: 10
(18 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 6, 2009 10:04 PM
Sandy, please tell us exactly where in the PayPal site it says that the Buyer Protection Policy (BPP) covers intangibles like services. You claim the BPP covers services, but I have looked and found no such language in the BPP or elsewhere. In fact, there is language elsewhere on the PayPal website strongly suggesting that the BPP only covers physical goods. For example, section 13 of the PayPal User Agreement discusses "Protection for Buyers" by repeatedly referring to "items". In common usage, the word "item" refers to something tangible - a thing, not a service. And on this page: Link ... PayPal twice uses the term "physical goods" when discussing buyer protection and dispute resolution on PayPal purchases. You seem to know your way around PayPal quite well. So please cite the exact language in the PayPal BPP where it expressly states that services are covered. Don't tell me what it doesn't say. Tell me what it says. Thank you, and...

Aloha!
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sandypurins
Posts: 36,332
(19 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 7, 2009 12:46 AM
Sandy, please tell us exactly where in the PayPal site it says that the Buyer Protection Policy (BPP) covers intangibles like services. You claim the BPP covers services, but I have looked and found no such language in the BPP or elsewhere.

I said that the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy no longer excludes intangible goods and services... see post #14 for the exact statement.

Questions for you... if the seller delivers "whatever it is that he sold" via email, is that an item or a service?

If it's an item, is it a tangible item or an intangible item?

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fosterbengoshi
Posts: 10
(20 of 20)

Re: Worried About Reversals? Get Buyers to Forfeit Rights - OK'd by PayPal

Nov 15, 2009 10:03 AM
Thank you for the typical useless PayPal NON-answer. I asked you to QUOTE where it says in the Buyer Protection/Complaint Policies that services are covered, and you merely directed me to an earlier post where you OPINED (but gave no support) that services are covered. Your/PayPal's mere conclusions and opinions are not good enough for me. I want to see the exact language saying services are covered. If services are not covered, then why is PayPal allowing (and, in fact, even suggesting) sellers to misrepresent the nature of buyers' orders to get around the very protections that cause so many buyers to use PayPal in the first place? Answer the question please - with facts and actual quoted text. Aloha!
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