Act II: US Forever Stamp Listings/Sales that Appear to be Counterfeit. Is it an Issue on eBay?

[bobdenneu]

My previous thread dealing with Counterfeit US Forever Stamps was shut down.  I am not ready to throw in the towel with this subject.  I will start by repeating one of my last posts that may be of interest. 

Ebay is now Using A.I. to Determine what Violates their Stamp Policy.

Recently eBay started providing acknowledgment to reports of suspicious listings and sales by sending messages saying.

"Thanks for reporting the content you found to be problematic on our site.  We’re looking into it now. We’ll let you know once we’ve reviewed it and provide you with details of any decision that we make."  

After a period of time, they would or would not inform via message if the item reported violated eBay Policy.  At first their reviews said "We looked into the matter and decided ".   Their decisions were basically yes or no with little explanation.

Then a subtle difference in their response

"We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence."  

All the items in question were US Forever Stamps in Rolls and Booklets listed in Collectables & Art> Art> Other Art Category and mostly sold by China and Hong Kong.  Coil Rolls of 100 Forever Stamps for the years 2017-2023 were selling for as little as $14.  The majority of the Booklets were selling at an average price of $15 for 5 Booklets of 20 stamps each.  Some Booklet names included Rudolph Reindeer, Gingerbread Houses, Winter Scenes, Jack o Lanterns, Frozen Treats, Snowy Beauty, Garden Flowers, and all Booklets from 2021-2023.

By using Non-Stamp Categories, Seller' s appear to be greenlighted and allowed to sell Suspected Counterfeit Forever Stamps with impunity.  It shows that the fight against selling Counterfeit Stamps is ongoing, and eBay is not up to the task of curtailing it.

I will follow up with additional posts disclosing what I see happening to US Forever Stamp Collecting.

[bobdenneu]

A.I. Strikes Again.  

Actually I should have said A.I. strikes out.  This is the response to Reporting a Listing Selling 20 Rolls of 2022 US Forever Stamps (2,000 stamps) at a price of $198.88 with 6 more sets available.  That's under $10 per roll.

We’re looking into it now. We’ll let you know once we’ve reviewed it and provide you with details of any decision that we make. 

Ebay did their analysis and sent this message.

We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.

The Seller is from the United Kingdom and joined eBay Nov 16, 2023.  This is the only Listing and of course,  no Feedback.  The Category of the Listing was Collectables & Art>Stamps> US>Postage.

This is not an isolated incident.

[albertabrightalberta]

There are many listings of counterfeit forever stamps. If the price is deeply discounted from retail price, my conservative guess is that 95% of the listings are for fakes. (My not conservative estimate is 99% to 100%)

[bobdenneu]

Gee, you're smarter than eBay's A.I.

[bobdenneu]

If you were selling Counterfeit Stamps on eBay, wouldn't you want to hide your tracks?

Sellers that profile from Hong Kong seem to be able to hide their tracks with a few simple tricks.  There are between 5-10 Seller with different ID names that constantly sell quantities of US Forever Stamps Rolls from the years 2017-2023.  They will List 1 Roll of stamps as a Buy-It-Now usually priced around $18, with 10 or more additionally available.  Once Listed, the fun begins.

Priced at a 71% Discount and in the Stamp>US>Postage Category, the stamps sell quickly.  As sales are made the Seller revises the Listing, changing the quantity available.  Quantities sold and Rolls available increase and eventually the Seller nears a self-imposed limit.   Once the limit is approached he again revises the Listing, but this time he changes the following:

Title

Description

PictureURL: Pictures Added/Deleted

Gallery

Once changes are made to the Listing, the Seller then ends the listing.  Once ended, the Listing shows up in the Sellers 'Sold Items' list.  That listing which originally showed a Picture of a Roll of Stamps at an $18 purchase price, now is shown in the Sellers 'Sold Item' list a picture of something completely different and not even stamps.  Sometimes the price is changed as well to further hide what was sold.

Just one of these Sellers has sold 432 Rolls in less than a month. 

Ebay, for whatever reason doesn't stop the sales.  The latest Listings were made today, and eBay's A. I. found no violations of Policy. 

[bobdenneu]

If interested, one may find a sampling of counterfeited stamp identifiers by entering (cf1) in the Shop by Category search.   Use the Collectables & Art>US Stamps category.   Focusing on US Forever Stamps.

I can lead you to the water.  Then you can look for yourselves.

[malolo]

Hi,

"Ebay, for whatever reason doesn't stop the sales.  The latest Listings were made today, and eBay's A. I. found no violations of Policy."

All those listings follow the eBay listing rules. The eBay defeinition of"policy" is different than your's or mine. Policy is different than ethics, and eBay has never had ethics other than how much money can we get from our users? That's business ethics at one of the lowest levels - becaus ehtey have no real competition in most categories. BTW - I've viewed APS stores items and many of them should never see the light of day, let alone be listed for sale at 35% of catalogue. A pathetic use of server space!

[bobdenneu]

Ah! In general, you may be right about everyday Listings following eBay Listing Rules.  However, eBay specifically has US Forever Stamp Policy Rules.  The listings I've mentioned violate the Policy.

Stamps policy

Counterfeit stamps can't be sold on eBay, while collectible and replica stamps must follow our policy.

We want our members to buy with confidence, so we've created a set of guidelines for selling stamps.

What is the policy?

• Counterfeit stamps and equipment designed to make these items are not allowed.

• Collectible stamps must include a picture of the actual item being sold and specify any alterations or flaws not seen in the photo.
• For replica stamps, the listing’s title, description and photos must clearly state or show that the item is a replica.
• Forever Stamps can be sold by eligible sellers only.

Activity on eBay is required to:

• Follow all applicable laws.
• Respect the rights of third parties.
• Follow the eBay User Agreement.
• Follow this eBay policy.

If activity doesn’t meet these requirements, eBay may take action consistent with applicable laws and the eBay User Agreement and may even be legally required to do so. Such actions may include, as an example only: administratively ending listings or canceling transactions, hiding or lowering the placement of listings in search results, lowering seller rating, restricting buying or selling, forfeiture of fees, loss of buyer or seller protections, restricting access to member communication and rating tools, removing feedback, and account suspension.

Products with eligibility requirements policy

Certain products are restricted to sellers that have pre-approval or meet selling requirements.

What is the policy?

Some products may be sold only by sellers who meet some or all of the following requirements:

• Seller has an established history of active selling for at least 90 days, with 100 or more transactions and $1,000 or more in sales in the last 12 months.
• Seller maintains a track record of delivering positive buying experiences, including an account that is Above Standard or Top Rated.
• Seller complies with all applicable laws, regulations, and eBay policies.
• Seller has registered for eBay managed payments and verified their identity.
• Seller does not engage in high-risk activities.  If we believe a seller is a high risk for not delivering the product or meeting these requirements, we may, at our sole discretion, restrict their ability to sell these products.

These products include:

• Bicycle helmets
• Car seats
• Cribs
• Forever Stamps
• Non-fungible tokens (NFTs)
• Sexual wellness products

[bobdenneu]

An update on eBay's use of A.I. and Automation to determine if suspected counterfeit US Forever Stamp Listings violate eBay Stamp Policy.

Ebay's A.I. and Automation review has determined that every listing reported online for suspected violations of the Eligibility Requirements for US Forever Stamps, has not violated their Policy.  Reported listings that violated Stamp Policy and reviewed by a Customer Service Agent were removed.  The problem with this process is that 95% of the listings reported were reviewed by A.I. and Automation.  After days of rejection of violations online, phone calls were made to report that eBay's A.I. sucks. 

New US Stamp listings are constantly reviewed to look for Bargains that I may buy.  While looking, there always are listing that stand out like a 'freak flag flying'.  Most deal with US Forever Stamps.  Lots of times clicking on one link leads to clicking on another and another.  The latest listings that were found to be odd were primarily made by 2 different ID's.

The first involved a member from China with 28 listings.  None were listed in the Stamp Category.  Most were listed in Collectables & Art>Collectables>Banks, Registers & Vending>Vending Machines>Postage Stamp.  All 28 listings were for US Forever Stamps.  All but 2 were Commemoratives in Sheets or Booklets sold as 5 or 10 sheets per listing.   All 28 had 10 or more sets of 5 or 10 available.  All 28 were selling with 50-70% discounts from face value.

The second seller from the US with 33 listings.  None were listed in the Stamp Category.  Most were listed in Collectables & Art>Coins & Paper Money> Paper Money: US> Other US Paper Money.   Among the 33 listings were 29 US Forever Commemoratives in Sheets or Booklets, 2 High Value Stamp blocks of 4 and 2 Forever Rolls of 100 stamps.  All 31 Forever listings were selling with 50-70% discounts.  The 2 High Value listings 50% or more discount.  The other unique thing was that because each item was viewed, the seller sent a special offer to sell with an additional 10-20% discount for all 33 listings.

My watchlist currently is full of 194 suspicious listings and I was struck by the number of various Categories that contained listings seen as follows:  

All Categories (194)

US Stamps 38

Other Art  85

Comic Book & Other Memorabilia 27

Banks, Registers and Vending 25

Paper Money: US  8

Stamping & Embossing 5

Advertising 2

Paper 2

Postcards & Supplies 1

Other Sporting Goods 1

Following the links led me to these Categories. 

[bobdenneu]

Are we witnessing the destruction of US Forever Stamp Collecting on eBay?

Anybody wonder where quantities of so-called Wedding or Love forever stamps from years past are now selling like hot cakes?  How about 2 sided forever booklets that were scarce 2 years ago and selling at a premium 2 to 3 times face value and are now starting to be sold in quantities at 50% discount from face value?  How does one comprehend some US Sellers that were not selling stamps in the past, now start selling multiple listings of different forever stamps in quantity, all below face value.  Along with those sales add in free shipping and eBay selling fees.

Today It was frustrating to see multiple listings of US Forever Stamps from ex- US Countries.  Most of the selling is occurring in 'Other Art' Category.  Countries selling include Brazil, Chile, Peru, Hong Kong, China, UK and ever Kenya.  They are not just selling rolls of stamps. Sales of Commemorative Booklets from 2013-2023 are now becoming commonplace.   Some Sheets of 20 are also showing up.  The listings usually are for 5 Booklets/Sheet (100 stamps) priced at a 50-75% discount.  Most have up to 10 or more sets of available per listing.

It doesn't bode well for stamp collectors.   What to do about it?   Ebay can't cope with it.  When they do act it's often too late.  Artificial Intelligence response to online reporting so far is a joke.  My latest suggestion to them as a start was to ban ex-US members from selling Forever Stamps.

This is a Stamp Community Thread.  Where are you Members?

[thines]

They're obviously counterfeits. It is a real problem for the USPS, but I don't see it as a problem for stamp collecting in general as few collectors collect forever stamps exclusively.

[malolo]

I read in the December issue of the American Philatelist, published by the American Philatelic Society, that the USPS, when it recognizes fake stamps, destroys the correspondence rather than return it. So the pressure is on people to not buy significantly discounted US stamps for use through the mail. They will never know whether their correspondence ever arrives, or not! My guess is that few collectors need to buy 100 stamp coils or multiple booklets for their collections, so that only leaves those members of the public who think they are getting a "really good eBay deal", good "Walmart deal", or those who are art collectors (LOL) will buy them. I've reached the point where I don't think all these fakes are hurting collecting, only the public who are seeking a cheap way to mail letters and that will eventually catch up with them.

[bobdenneu]

My concerns do deal with US Forever Stamps.  Counterfeiting those stamps is growing.  There isn't much concern with pre 2010 stamps with denominations that are fixed.  It would be interesting to see how many members in eBay's Stamp Community deal with Forever Stamps, either buying or selling.

The Counterfeiters will go where the money is.  Forever Rolls of stamps are completed saturated with counterfeits, selling for as little as $9 a roll.  There are attempts to go back and find rare, denominated stamps.  Linn's Stamp News featured a newly discovered Counterfeit of a 2010 Forty-Four Cent Love Pansies that was made larger than the original.  They are showing up on eBay.  

One other concern about Collecting Forever Stamps.  n these times, do collectors actually care whether or not the stamps they collect are authentic or do they just want to fill in spaces in their albums

[malolo]

I think that those who are buying rolls of flag stamps, are not collectors, so I don't care whether someone's business mail gets burned by the USPS. How many collectors buy 100 stamps rolls?

Not arguing but pointing out that so much effort has been put into this problem that I think you should be very satisfied that there is an awarness in the collector community. The rest of the world can be Buyer beware.

[bobdenneu]

I reported that USPS proposed ruling at the time, in my last terminated thread Message 90.  Didn't know it actually was implemented.  I wonder how the USPS determines that a stamp is counterfeit.  It certainly won't be handled by local PO's.  Counterfeiters now incorporate Ultraviolet Light and Tagging technology that would likely fool Processing Centers Scanning.  As far as I know, there are no printing techniques that a counterfeiter couldn't copy.